When the church was born, she was a subversive, revolutionary movement of sold-out Christ-followers, whose chief desire was to fulfill the mission of Christ and reveal the kingdom of God, whose greatest source of persecution was from an establishment called the Roman Empire.
Today, there is a similar subversive, revolutionary movement of sold-out Christ-followers, whose chief desire is to fulfill the mission of Christ and reveal the kingdom of God, whose greatest source of persecution is from an establishment called…the church.
Wayward Son
Musician. Composer. Recovering perfectionist. Minister-in-transition. Lover of puns. Hijacker of rock song references. Questioner of the status quo.
I'm not really a rebel. Just a sincere Christ-follower with a thirst for significance that gets me into trouble. My quest has taken me over the fence of institutional Christianity. Here are some of my random thoughts along the way. Read along, join in the conversation. Just be nice.
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well said, my friend, well said.
Spot on, my friend. Spot on.
The Roman Empire was up there, but don’t forget even back then the “Church” (Pharisees and Co.) was a huge source of persecution.
The underground church in China and other places resemble the early church.. persecution there is a bit different than the one you speak of Jeff.
Yes indeed. Ironic and very sad.
Yes Sir!! If you want to step on a “pastor’s” toes, go to an institutional church and be a radical sold out servant for Jesus Christ.
They are sometimes supportive with their lips. But, their actions say otherwise. Very sad!!!
Thanks,
Gary
In some regard. But you could also suggest that same early group was poised against more-so that Rome, man-glorifying, self-righteous religion,
While that would be the attitude and “spirit” Christ-followers are opposed by today too.
I might have to say it hasn’t changed much… Pharisee’s then, gospel-less religion today…my two cents.
Hadn’t thought about it that way before. Like Kathy commented – very well said.
Kathy & Steve,
Thank you, my friends. Thank you. 🙂
Itsallbygrace,
I haven't forgotten. In fact, the root cause of the persecution both from the Pharisees and the Roman Empire were essentially the same: religion. The Pharisees rejected the Lordship of Christ; the Caesar wanted to be worshiped as a god.
KB,
When I first read your comment, my first impulse was to instantly regret that I'd used the words "source of persecution". (It was originally "chief adversary", but I felt that would convey the wrong meaning, like we are adversaries with the church when we are not.) I became concerned that I'd somehow glossed over the plight of the persecuted church in other countries, and I'd never want to do that.
But as I pondered your comment that their persecution is different from what I speak of…I realized that one doesn't have to look back too far in history to find the institutional church committing the same type of atrocities against dissenters as Communist China does now. The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind. So to say the persecution isn't as severe is correct; to say it is "different"…maybe not so much. I think when an institution feels threatened, the root of the opposition comes from the same source.
Mark,
Yes, indeed…sigh.
Gary,
In fairness, bro…not all pastors act in this manner. I know a few personally who genuinely try to make room for, equip and facilitate Christ-followers trying to fulfill Christ's mission. But for many, quite often, even when their intentions are good…their mindsets and brokenness get in the way. Spoken from one who has had to deal with his own brokenness…
Jason 73,
Thanks for the two cents. I think you're right–as I mentioned earlier in this comment, I think the resistance overall comes from the same source.
Heather,
Good to hear from you. Thanks!
Thanks for your thoughts Jeff. I guess we just have a different perspective on persecution and on the institution.. but I suspect that we are pretty close on the kingdom 🙂
Blessings, Bob
Hi Jeff,
One thing i wanted to add was
how Timothy said when he endured persecutions, he as well said but “out of them all the Lord delivered me” (2 Tim 3:11) That’s our hope and we know God is so faithful! and this is true whereever the persecution comes from, from those closest to us, and/ or including those in the institution, who do persecute us for not being like them.
The church seems to always historically flourish when it does go ‘underground’ so to speak. Or is persecuted like when they were scattered at jerusalem, it was to spread the gospel. So my thought is that it’s good to look beyond where the persecution may and will come from, and know that God has a plan in that, he will deliver us, This is not very easy to do at times though.
KB,
Thanks also for your thoughts, and for sharpening me. I guess what I was trying to say by the statement I made was that the church should not be persecuting its own…no matter what that might look like. Persecution is to be expected from the world, as it is ongoing in some parts of the world; but not from within.
Well said, Ruth. Thanks.
Thx Jeff.. I see what you are saying. Do you think that the church sometimes persecutes other Christian sects calling them cults?
There are times when the established church has and does persecute, and that is a danger to be aware of. There is also a lot of watered down, bible editing, I’m OK You’re OK garbage out there also. And you are NOT OK, neither am I. We need a savior! The church that can speak into your life and that you ALLOW to speak into your life is a very important component to your spiritual growth. He who listens to his own advice is a fool (or something like that). That is not to say follow blindly or that the church is always right. But even Martin Luther struggled greatly to decide to differ from the established church. (…and I am glad he did.) I guess I am just suggesting caution in the idea of “rebelling”.
Jeff,
I apologize. I should have been more specific and said generally. I know there are some Pastors out there who are doing it right. They’re just really hard to find.
And, I also must confess that I am a bit jaded and skeptical at this point in my walk.
A difinite sign of the need for more healing.
Blessings,
Gary
Jeff,
That last entry was from me. I accidently sent it under my wife’s account.
Thanks,
Gary
KB,
Although there are a lot of genuine cults out there…I do think quite often church folks use the word “cult” as a loaded word to marginalize groups they don’t understand or who make them uncomfortable, without any evidence to substantiate the label. (Early on, for example, people accused the Word-Faith movement of being a cult. Nowadays, regardless if you agree with them, few Christians would question the salvation of the Word-Faith camp, any more than they would the Baptists.)
I also think “persecution” can be more subtle than open hostility or attack. Sometimes it can come in the form of silent alienation and isolation. When this comes from the world, you’d barely notice it; but when it comes from people you consider to be brothers and sisters…it can hurt as deeply as if someone stabbed you.
Aaron,
I’d have to say that when someone is genuinely trying to follow Christ, that isn’t “rebellion”. Rebellion is when you don’t want to follow *anyone*. And I believe that genuine Christ-following will naturally involve a healthy accountability with your brethren.
In my experience, belonging to an established church does not safeguard against either heresy or sin; both happen just as much within the walls as without, and both are enemies we must always contend with, no matter what form the church might take. But the reality is…there are many within the established church (especially leaders) who use “correction” as a means to control, and it has absolutely nothing to do with either heresy or sin; it has to do with the self-preservation of the leadership. (I know whereof I speak, because sadly, that’s the kind of leader I was, also.) That’s an example of the sort of thing I’m talking about here. The irony is that someone who is genuinely seeking a fresh expression of their faith can find themselves on the receiving end of hostility from institutional forms of church, simply because their expression doesn’t fit the prescribed mold–not because they are actually being un-Biblical.
Gary,
No apology needed, bro. You feel what you feel. Thanks for the honesty.
Great thoughts Jeff!!
I agree with you about the Word of Faith movement.. I know of folks on the radio regularly bash them.. 25+ years ago I was one of them.. sort of 🙂
I think that a lot of the persecution that you reference has been experienced by Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and other folks that we commonly refer to and label as “cults”.
I started seeing this type of sad bias in the presidential primaries in the ways that Christians would refer to Mitt Romney. I watched Mitt being interviewed and listened to him speaking about Jesus.. it was obvious to me that he was a sincere seeker of Christ. Barack Obama experienced similar biased critique by “orthodox” folks.
I have really enjoyed this dialog Jeff.. it has helped me to see the arrogance of the institution and my own theological pride.
God have mercy on us to learn the many ways that we persecute those who seek God in ways that are not consistent with our ways.
His mercy is wider than we think.